An Open Letter to Anti-Missionaries (i.e., Jews for Judaism)

k0169018Dear Anti-Missionaries/Counter-Missionaries,

Shalom and blessings in the name of Jesus the Jewish Messiah.

I know the sentence above is perhaps a bit inflammatory to you; especially since many groups who share their faith of Messiah Jesus are categorized by such groups as Jews for Judaism as being similar to the picture to the left. Groups such as Jews for Judaism or Rabbi Tovia Singer want to picture us as somewhat angry individuals who walk around carrying big Bibles who want to “steal Jewish souls” away from the Jewish community. This could not be farther from the truth. For while I do believe that Jesus is the Jewish and Gentile Messiah, I don’t fit into the category that such anti-missionary groups try to pigeon-hole and/or stereotype me into belonging. Consequently, I want this letter to explain who Tzedakah Ministries is, who I am, and why this ministry shares the truth of Jesus the Jewish and Gentile Messiah with everyone but especially “to the Jew first” (Romans 1:16).

I do believe Jesus is the Jewish and Gentile Messiah. In fact, I once told anti-missionary leader Rabbi Bentzion Kravitz personally, and in front of a room full of Jewish people, that if Jesus is not the Messiah that I am heading to hell when I die. He was shocked by my response as was the Jewish people who heard my response but it was necessary to illustrate to the rabbi my absolute belief and affirmation of Jesus’ Messiahship (BTW, I had at least two or three Jewish people come up to me afterwards to indicate that I had given them “spiritual” food for thought). I would not be dedicating my life, my health, my future to this work if I did not believe that Jesus was who He said He was. Because despite counter-missionaries allegations to the contrary, Jewish evangelism is not easy and popular within most Christian venues. It is awkward. It is uncomfortable. It doe not have a high ROI on the missions radar and so many evangelistic agencies look to other people groups where it is easier and results in more people coming to faith in Jesus. I know this goes against some of your PR advertising but I wanted to tell you the truth.

I realize that this short blog post could turn into a large booklet if I took the time to respond to all the anti-missionaries arguments against Jesus the Jewish Messiah. In fact, Tzedakah Ministries and this blog has somewhat done this throughout the history of Mystery Solved with Messiah Jesus, especially when it took the time to begin responding point-by-point to Norman Asher’s Twenty-Six Reasons Why Jews Don’t Believe in Jesus. I have to admit that I still haven’t finished responding to all 26 points (because I honestly believe some of them are ridiculous and redundant); however, you can search this blog for some of those responses to Norman Asher’s book.

Instead, I will take the time to illustrate my belief in Jesus through three prophecies from the Tanakh, one issue from the “intertestamental” period, and one quotation/question related to today.

Prophecies from the Tanakh — Daniel 9; Isaiah 53; and Psalm 22

Depending upon whom one asks, there are a multiple number of answers regarding the number of prophecies that Jesus fulfilled, fulfilling or will fulfill. Some are more obvious than others and some are more subjective than others. However, this specific apologetic methodology will limit itself to three prophecies as it relates to the Crucifixion narrative of Jesus–Daniel 9; Isaiah 53; and Psalm 22. A secondary reason why these three prophecies were selected for this methodology is primarily due to the fact that they are relatively ignored by modern Judaism due to their “awkwardness” as it relates to Jesus and because of an almost universal recognition that there is something special about these passages.
Of all the Messianic prophecies, Daniel 9:24-27 (esp. v. 25-26) is one of the most complicated and convoluted:

Seventy weeks have been decreed for your people and your holy city until the measure of transgression is filled and that of sin complete, until inquiry is expiated, and eternal righteousness ushered in; and prophetic vision ratified, and the Holy of Holies anointed. You must know and understand: From the issuance of the word to restore and rebuild Jerusalem until the [time of the] anointed leader is seven weeks, and for sixty-two weeks it will be rebuilt, square and moat, but in a time of distress.

Interpretation depends on whether one views the prophecy to be literal and when the order to rebuild Jerusalem was actually given. The classic work by anti-missionary Issac Troki argues for a Cyrus fulfillment of the passage based on Ezra 1 and 2 Chronicles 36; however, this called for only a rebuilding of the Temple. Is this a fulfillment of the passage in Daniel and how does one respond to the cutting off of the anointed one (Messiah) after the sixty-nine weeks if that would be 483 years after 536 BC and Cyrus’ decree? The Messianic/Christian option is to consider this fulfillment of Daniel 9 to lie with the order of King Xerxes’ order to rebuild the walls of the city in c.445 BC which would bring fulfillment and the cutting off of the anointed one around AD 29-30. The Messianic fulfillment in Jesus does make more logical sense; however, it is the relative avoidance of the passage by anti-missionaries (except for Troki) and the neglect of the passage in the synagogue that would open the passage up for an apologetic consideration among both the Jewish people as well as the non-Jewish audience. Controversy is contagious for discussion, especially when one considers that regardless of when the order of Daniel 9 began to be fulfilled the Messiah (anointed one) should have appeared before AD 70.

Given that Daniel 9 provides the timing of the arrival of the Messiah (pre-AD 70), the next prophetic passage is in what form should the Messiah come. The next prophetic passage of Isaiah 53 provides the answer and this is one of the most discussed in the Christian world and one of the most avoid in the Jewish world. The passage is not included in the Haftarah portion of synagogue readings and from anecdotal experiences it can be stated that most Jewish people have never studied the passage for themselves. However, there is virtually little difference between the Christian and Jewish version of the text, especially in verse 5, “But he was wounded because of our sins, Crushed because of our iniquities. He bore the chastisement that made us whole, And by his bruises we were healed.” Therefore, and this is true for both the non-Jewish and Jewish audience, a simple exposure to the text opens and perhaps even “blows” the mind of those who hear/read it for the first time.

Tzedakah Ministries has developed a simple tract for Christians and churches to use to explain how the common anti-missionary options for the Suffering Servant fail and how Jesus is the literal fulfillment of the passage.Isaiah 53 BackDaniel 9 provides the timing of the Messiah’s arrival. Isaiah 53 depicts the nature of how the Messiah would be received, the Suffering Servant. Psalm 22 provides the details of His suffering. Therefore, these three prophecies provide a layering (a Cumulative Case) which provide the reality that the Messiah was to die/suffer for the sins of the world. And while there is controversy over the translation of verse 17, “Dogs surround me; a pack of evil ones close in on me, like lions [they maul] my hands and feet,” between the Jewish and Christian Bibles, the point of the passage and perhaps the reason why Jesus purposefully called out verse one from the cross is that an innocent man died for the sins of others and in this death lost a connection, for a while, to the Father God. This final layering of Biblical prophecies is intrinsically important based upon an anecdotal experience in which an Israeli believer related that everyone who heard Jesus shout out, “My God, my God,” knew that He was claiming Psalm 22 for Himself. Therefore, Jesus came at the right time (Daniel 9), came as the right Servant (Isaiah 53), and died in the right manner for the right reason (Psalm 22). This layering of prophecy creates a Cumulative Case of apologetic method that would be difficult for anyone, Jewish or Gentile, to counter.

Messiah ben Joseph/Messiah ben David

One of the little known secrets of Rabbinic and intertestamental Jewish literature is the story of Messiah ben Joseph and Messiah ben David. There was during the intertestamental period the idea that there were would be two Messiahs, one who would suffer and die for the people (Isaiah 53; Zechariah 12 ) and one who would rule triumphantly as sovereign ruler. Joseph would suffer and David would reign. One of the passages in which reference to these two Messiahs is found is in the Babylonian Talmud Sukkah 52a-b. And while the Talmud is a difficult “encyclopedia” to process through, the concept of not only the Messiah but also Jesus himself is present in the pages and provides evidentiary proof that the concept of Messiah is important and the person of Jesus is controversial. This controversy, along with the evidentiary material provided, builds upon the cumulative case that this apologetic method is seeking to build. The Talmud also provides other interesting evidence about the connection of Jesus to the Temple, including the fact that after AD 30 the Yom Kippur goat was never again properly selected and the Menorah candles refused to stay lit in the Temple.

Jesus and TalmudTzedakah Ministries would argue, and I believe quite persuasively, that the rabbis in the Talmud came very close to understanding/recognizing the truth of Jesus the Jewish Messiah. Jesus came the first time in His role as the Messiah to suffer (i.e., as a Joseph figure). He will come the second time to rule in his role as the descendant of David on the throne of David forever and ever. Therefore, the reason why all the events happened in CE/AD 70 was that the events at Jesus’ crucifixion/resurrection satisfied God’s requirement for atonement. I know that Rabbi Tovia Singer attempts to argue against this interpretation in BT Yoma 39b but seriously does his argument really make sense? Seriously?


Rabbi Pinchas Lapide, who incidentally did not believe in the truth of Jesus’ Messiahship, did believe in Jesus’ resurrection. Did you know that to be the case? Rabbi Lapide once stated in his book, The Resurrection of Jesus:

“The fact that this resurrection had only a few witnesses is no obstacle but rather a further proof of its genuineness.”

If Rabbi Lapide could believe in Jesus’ resurrection, why can’t you? I wish that the Rabbi would have believed in the truth of Jesus’ Messiahship before He died but the rabbi acknowledged that believing in the resurrection was in fact a very Jewish concept. I would suggest you read the book for yourself. For this brings me to my last question …


I would argue that this fear of Jesus has created a fear of miracles for many Jewish people today. Howard Schwartz notes, “…few among the followers of the modern branches of Judaism believe in the literal parting of the Red Sea, much less the existence of angels. Along with our belief in miracles, we have lost much of our spiritual faith. But in recent years many Jews have begun to search for way to restore the lost spiritual realm.” In my personal and reflective perspective, modern Judaism has lost its day-to-day impact on the life of its members not only because of their refusal to see that Jesus is the Messiah but also because of their fear of the miraculous. This fear of the miraculous, especially the truth of the resurrection of Jesus, lies around the idea that it will turn Jewish individuals towards Jesus the Jewish miracle worker and Jewish Messiah. Is this your fear? There is truly no reason for your fear of miracles or your fear of Jesus. Jesus is ready to calm your fears. Jesus is ready to answer your questions. Jesus is ready to be your Messiah.

In Conclusion…

I want to close my letter with an explanation. I want to explain to you why I do what I do. I have no choice.

Jesus saved me. He saved me as my Messiah from the hell I told Rabbi Kravitz I was headed towards. He saved me because He loved me and He gave me a love and a commission to share His message of love and forgiveness with everyone I meet, including and especially His Jewish brothers and sisters. If I choose not to share this message with you, I would deny the message of love He gave to me. I would deny the love He wants to give to you. I would deny the truth of His Messiahship to the world. I just cannot do that. Would you really want me to do it to you … to Him?

I hope by now you will recognize that I do not fit the picture that you have of Jewish evangelists and missionaries. My mom loves me! My Messiah Jesus loves me. And I love you because and since He loves us both.

Acts 20:24,





Amy Downey — Director

Tzedakah Ministries


61 Comments Add yours

  1. lisa says:

    AWESOME! Your letter is…concise and Clear. Your letter is not emotion driven (the fervor is palpable but not used in place of truth) but factual and based on the OT prophecies and writings. Your letter is linear and thorough in building a case for Yeshua as the Messiah, using 3’OT Scriptures. Your letter acknowledges the stumbling blocks of generations of Judaism. Your letter acknowledges what our charge as believers (in one redemptive and servant Messiah who will come again as the King of Kings and judge of all mankind) to share the Truth about God’s merciful plan and loving desire to rescue us from this fallen world.

    May God help us and enlighten (removing the scales from the eyes) all those He loves…and make us vessels He can use for eternal purposes.


    Sent from my iPhone


    1. steve says:


      1. I hope the weather in Warrington, PA, is not too chilly today. Steve, the real truth is only through Messiah Jesus as he himself stated in John 14:6.

  2. Zvi Zaks says:

    This website (which I wrote) – – addresses your claims about Isiah 53, Daniel and many other of the proof texts. I have yet to have anyone seriously address my arguments. Would you like to be the first, or would you rather delete this message.

    1. I believe that my initial response already defeats your arguments; therefore, there is nothing more I wish to add. And I feel no need to delete this message. Your arrogance on the other hand is indeed shortsighted.

      1. Ben Setser says:

        As always, Amy will not offer a reasonable reply. She calls names, but gets angry if someone else does. She does delete many messages on her Face Book page that does not fit her idea of religiosity and is much too blind to see the polytheism of her xtanity.

      2. Ben,

        I would like to ask you to provide three pieces of evidence as proof of your comment:

        1. How is my reply not reasonable?
        2. Where did I call names?
        3. I have deleted messages on Facebook but that was because of lies directed towards my character or the character of Jesus. Where have I deleted messages that does not fit my idea of religiosity?

        If you cannot provide such evidence, please cease and desist.

      3. Ben Setser says:

        Amy, you deleted all the messages and responses except yours on your “Tzedakah Ministries” facebook page. If one should go look at your “Tzedakah Ministries” facebook page, it looks like you are having an argument with yourself. You don’t want dialog, you just want your own way.

  3. I am struggling to find how to respond to your questions….. Simply because it has already been said over…. and over… and over… so I am trying to think of small enough words to help you understand… Maybe go listen to Tovia’s explanation again and take notes? Or watch Rabbi Skovic on youtube one more time and just maybe you will finally understand the words?

    The Daniel dates are CLEARLY proven time and time again, yet somehow you feel you can move dates around to make it fit JC. I believe that has been responded to sooooooo many times that if you still don’t understand it, I am just sorry.

    The suffering servant has always been Israel/House of David. Every single time it is mentioned.

    I do not fear any miracleship of JC because there was no miracle. Elijah did more miracles and never claimed to be anything more than G-d’s messenger. JC never existed in my opinion. There is more proof of Santa Claus than of JC. There are more bigfoot sightings than JC sightings historically. ALL of the supposed things he did if he would have existed are copied straight out of the lives of Krishna, Mithra, and Buddha. Even the words he spoke, the made up titles he held (lamb of god, prince of peace, etc) are stolen.

    It is shocking to hear you say that if JC isnt the messiah you will go to hell. Because without JC there isn’t a hell. There isn’t a devil. There is only HaShem. There is ONE G-d. I know this is hard to accept. You have to have a devil to blame for the evil. It is true, however.

    You know my problem and the reason why I am so arrogant towards you about the subject? You are being deceptive. You are disguising your Christianity with Judaism to trick Jews. You are like the child predator that some poor woman marries. They have kids together and then one day out of the blue she realizes she married the thing she hated the most.

    I am a convert FROM Christianity to Judaism…. So you aren’t tricking me with your deceptions, but it is offensive for you to corrupt judaism with your ideas. If anyone wants to read why Jews should never embrace Christianity, Aish has the reasons listed and I copied them below.

    **************Copied from************************

    1. Jesus Did Not Fulfill the Messianic Prophecies
    What is the Messiah supposed to accomplish? One of the central themes of biblical prophecy is the promise of a future age of perfection characterized by universal peace and recognition of God. (Isaiah 2:1-4, 32:15-18, 60:15-18; Zephaniah 3:9; Hosea 2:20-22; Amos 9:13-15; Micah 4:1-4; Zechariah 8:23, 14:9; Jeremiah 31:33-34)
    Specifically, the Bible says he will:
    Build the Third Temple (Ezekiel 37:26-28).
    Gather all Jews back to the Land of Israel (Isaiah 43:5-6).
    Usher in an era of world peace, and end all hatred, oppression, suffering and disease. As it says: “Nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall man learn war anymore.” (Isaiah 2:4)
    Spread universal knowledge of the God of Israel, which will unite humanity as one. As it says: “God will be King over all the world ― on that day, God will be One and His Name will be One” (Zechariah 14:9).
    If an individual fails to fulfill even one of these conditions, then he cannot be the Messiah.
    Because no one has ever fulfilled the Bible’s description of this future King, Jews still await the coming of the Messiah. All past Messianic claimants, including Jesus of Nazareth, Bar Cochba and Shabbtai Tzvi have been rejected.
    Christians counter that Jesus will fulfill these in the Second Coming. Jewish sources show that the Messiah will fulfill the prophecies outright; in the Bible no concept of a second coming exists.
    2) Jesus Did Not Embody the Personal Qualifications of Messiah
    A. Messiah as Prophet
    The Messiah will become the greatest prophet in history, second only to Moses. (Targum – Isaiah 11:2; Maimonides – Yad Teshuva 9:2)
    Prophecy can only exist in Israel when the land is inhabited by a majority of world Jewry, a situation which has not existed since 300 BCE. During the time of Ezra, when the majority of Jews remained in Babylon, prophecy ended upon the death of the last prophets ― Haggai, Zechariah and Malachi.
    Jesus appeared on the scene approximately 350 years after prophecy had ended, and thus could not be a prophet.
    B. Descendent of David
    Many prophetic passages speak of a descendant of King David who will rule Israel during the age of perfection. (Isaiah 11:1-9; Jeremiah 23:5-6, 30:7-10, 33:14-16; Ezekiel 34:11-31, 37:21-28; Hosea 3:4-5)
    The Messiah must be descended on his father’s side from King David (see Genesis 49:10, Isaiah 11:1, Jeremiah 23:5, 33:17; Ezekiel 34:23-24). According to the Christian claim that Jesus was the product of a virgin birth, he had no father ― and thus could not have possibly fulfilled the messianic requirement of being descended on his father’s side from King David. (1)
    According to Jewish sources, the Messiah will be born of human parents and possess normal physical attributes like other people. He will not be a demi-god, (2) nor will he possess supernatural qualities.
    C. Torah Observance
    The Messiah will lead the Jewish people to full Torah observance. The Torah states that all mitzvot remain binding forever, and anyone coming to change the Torah is immediately identified as a false prophet. (Deut. 13:1-4)
    Throughout the New Testament, Jesus contradicts the Torah and states that its commandments are no longer applicable. For example, John 9:14 records that Jesus made a paste in violation of Shabbat, which caused the Pharisees to say (verse 16), “He does not observe Shabbat!”
    3) Mistranslated Verses “Referring” to Jesus
    Biblical verses can only be understood by studying the original Hebrew text ― which reveals many discrepancies in the Christian translation.
    A. Virgin Birth
    The Christian idea of a virgin birth is derived from the verse in Isaiah 7:14 describing an “alma” as giving birth. The word “alma” has always meant a young woman, but Christian theologians came centuries later and translated it as “virgin.” This accords Jesus’ birth with the first century pagan idea of mortals being impregnated by gods.
    B. Suffering Servant
    Christianity claims that Isaiah chapter 53 refers to Jesus, as the “suffering servant.”
    In actuality, Isaiah 53 directly follows the theme of chapter 52, describing the exile and redemption of the Jewish people. The prophecies are written in the singular form because the Jews (“Israel”) are regarded as one unit. Throughout Jewish scripture, Israel is repeatedly called, in the singular, the “Servant of God” (see Isaiah 43:8). In fact, Isaiah states no less than 11 times in the chapters prior to 53 that the Servant of God is Israel.
    When read correctly, Isaiah 53 clearly [and ironically] refers to the Jewish people being “bruised, crushed and as sheep brought to slaughter” at the hands of the nations of the world. These descriptions are used throughout Jewish scripture to graphically describe the suffering of the Jewish people (see Psalm 44).
    Isaiah 53 concludes that when the Jewish people are redeemed, the nations will recognize and accept responsibility for the inordinate suffering and death of the Jews.
    4) Jewish Belief is Based Solely on National Revelation
    Throughout history, thousands of religions have been started by individuals, attempting to convince people that he or she is God’s true prophet. But personal revelation is an extremely weak basis for a religion because one can never know if it is indeed true. Since others did not hear God speak to this person, they have to take his word for it. Even if the individual claiming personal revelation performs miracles, they do not prove he is a genuine prophet. All the miracles show ― assuming they are genuine ― is that he has certain powers. It has nothing to do with his claim of prophecy.
    Judaism, unique among all of the world’s major religions, does not rely on “claims of miracles” as the basis for its religion. In fact, the Bible says that God sometimes grants the power of “miracles” to charlatans, in order to test Jewish loyalty to the Torah (Deut. 13:4).
    Of the thousands of religions in human history, only Judaism bases its belief on national revelation ― i.e. God speaking to the entire nation. If God is going to start a religion, it makes sense He’ll tell everyone, not just one person.
    Maimonides states (Foundations of Torah, ch. 8):
    The Jews did not believe in Moses, our teacher, because of the miracles he performed. Whenever anyone’s belief is based on seeing miracles, he has lingering doubts, because it is possible the miracles were performed through magic or sorcery. All of the miracles performed by Moses in the desert were because they were necessary, and not as proof of his prophecy.
    What then was the basis of [Jewish] belief? The Revelation at Mount Sinai, which we saw with our own eyes and heard with our own ears, not dependent on the testimony of others… as it says, “Face to face, God spoke with you…” The Torah also states: “God did not make this covenant with our fathers, but with us ― who are all here alive today.” (Deut. 5:3)
    Judaism is not miracles. It is the personal eyewitness experience of every man, woman and child, standing at Mount Sinai 3,300 years ago.
    For further reading: “Did God Speak at Mount Sinai?”
    Waiting for the Messiah
    The world is in desperate need of Messianic redemption. To the extent that we are aware of the problems of society, is the extent we will yearn for redemption. As the Talmud says, one of the first questions asked of a Jew on Judgment Day is: “Did you yearn for the arrival of the Messiah?”
    How can we hasten the coming of the Messiah? The best way is to love all humanity generously, to keep the mitzvot of the Torah (as best we can), and to encourage others to do so as well.
    Despite the gloom, the world does seem headed toward redemption. One apparent sign is that the Jewish people have returned to the Land of Israel and made it bloom again. Additionally, a major movement is afoot of young Jews returning to Torah tradition.
    The Messiah can come any day, and it all depends on our actions. God is ready when we are. For as King David says: “Redemption will come today ― if you hearken to His voice.”

    1. Lewis — Let me reply point-by-point but quickly. First, please look up the word hubris in the dictionary as you will see a picture of yourself. Bart Ehrman who is an atheist incidentally has written a book which completely debunks your premise about the non-existence of Jesus — Did Jesus Exist? Ridiculous. Second, if you are going to make such hubristic statements, please know that I am going to demand evidence.

      Regarding Daniel — you have to understand that I have done the research and you have to recognize that we are dealing with a Hebraic calendar and a Julian calendar. When you understand that fact, the dates match regardless of what Tovia Singer or any other anti-missionary tells you. Sorry.

      Regarding Isaiah — please provide Scriptural evidence for your claim. The pronoun evidence as well as all other evidence that I have provided does not back your claim. Sorry.

      Regarding the miracles issue — you deliberately misunderstood my argument. Why do you disclaim miracles today? The evidence that I have provided from Jewish sources state is it is because miracles direct people towards Jesus. Sorry.

      Hell does exist in the Tanakh. There is plenty of Biblical evidence for that place as well as Satan unless you are going to argue that Genesis 3, Job, Isaiah 14 and other places in the Hebrew Scriptures are lies. Sorry.

      Regarding And I love it when people simply copy from someone else … NOT.

      Regarding #1 — This is a common misconception. What is not acknowledged is that during the time of Jesus is that there was a two-Messiah thought called Messiah ben Joseph/Messiah ben David concept. ben Joseph was supposed to fulfill the Suffering Servant concept of the Messiah in that he would die for the sins of the people while ben David would triumphant over the enemies of the people. What they developed was two Messiahs coming once instead of one Messiah coming twice. In addition, the Maccabean Revolt confused the concept of what the Messiah was to be as they ceased from recognizing that the Messiah was to be redemptive individual and not simply one to “kick Roman butt.” In one sense, Jesus has not YET fulfilled all the prophecies but He will because the Messiah is one who comes twice. By the way, I note that you did not touch the Messiah ben Joseph/Messiah ben David argument. Why?

      Regarding #2 — Maimonides and the rabbinical leaders AFTER Jesus established the qualifications for the Messiah according to their job description. One wonders why Jesus would not fit the personal qualifications of man who had a reason to “disqualify” Jesus. This is a rabbit trail argument that is easily debunked if one understands the rationale of when/where/why the qualifications were established. BTW, as I look as Aish’s claims, each of these are easily debunked because according to their own arguments — no one could be the Messiah (especially because Jeremiah/Jeconiah). Regarding the claim that Jesus abolished Torah, they have not read Matthew 5-7, which I would encourage you to do. Regarding the claim that he made paste on Shabbat, that is a red herring as he was healing on the Sabbath which is allowed according to the Talmud.

      Regarding #3 — Isaiah 7:14 is easily responded to based upon a clear, HISTORICAL understanding of the Septuagint as well as a honest explanation of the words almah and betulah. Do we really need to parse those words? Seriously? Isaiah 53 is not Israel and it only was considered as possibly referring to Israel beginning with Rashi/Maimonides in the 12th-13th centuries AFTER Jesus. Before then, it referred to the Messiah and a honest theologian will acknowledge that fact. Be honest.

      Regarding #4 — Again, you are looking at Maimonidean arguments which is based on 12th century after Jesus disputations. I am writing my dissertation on Maimonides’ issues with Jesus but that is about a 1 1/2 year away from being finished. And so, we can discuss Maimonides if you really, really want to do so. Do you?

  4. ***Let me reply point-by-point but quickly. First, please look up the word hubris in the dictionary as you will see a picture of yourself. Bart Ehrman who is an atheist incidentally has written a book which completely debunks your premise about the non-existence of Jesus — Did Jesus Exist? Ridiculous. Second, if you are going to make such hubristic statements, please know that I am going to demand evidence.
    – The only evidence is reference to people talking about Christians, not about JC. Most more than 60 years after his death. Not compelling to hear the story from the guy who knew a guy who knew a guy. Hubris? Really? You defile another religion and call me a hubris? You spit on the graves of the people who have been MASSACRED because of their devout faith AGAINST Christianity’s sword, yet call me arrogant? Be a NORMAL Christian instead of a bad Christian and a HORRIBLE Jew. You will get a lot less of an extreme response. You are a religion of subterfuge and deception, defiling the blessings with the name of a non existent messiah you treat as a god. You pray to your messiah? Really? Because HaShem just isn’t good enough? It’s a sick perversion of Judaism.

    Re: Hebrew calender and Julian calender. Both end up with the same number of years. The leap years move differently, but over a period of 490 years it balances out to the same. Our seasons stay roughly in the same months every year. Otherwise we would be like the Muslim’s calender that has spring in different months every few years.

    ***Hell does exist in the Tanakh. There is plenty of Biblical evidence for that place as well as Satan unless you are going to argue that Genesis 3, Job, Isaiah 14 and other places in the Hebrew Scriptures are lies. Sorry.***
    Hell does not exist in the Tanakh. There is only shaol and death. Not being resurrected in the world to come is the ONLY punishment after death. Satan is not the devil Christianity makes him. Satan is a willing servant to HaShem. He is not the evil god of hell that tempts you at every step. He will not reign over anything. Job is the only place it is even regarded as an individual and not a theory of opposition. And Job is allegorical literature to show how bad things happen to good people. It’s in the writings to give us wisdom.

    Regarding #1 – There are a LOT of ways the two messiah theory can be seen. It is based on a midrash, so there are many things open to debate or to be thought about. The way I see it is that if Israel repents of their sins, do not follow idol worshipers, and stick to the Torah as we have been commanded to, then we get the good guy. If we do not, then we get the bad guy. Regardless, JC did nothing to fulfill any of it, so it is really a non-point on the JC being the messiah. Or any messiah, since he was never the king of anything IF HE EVER EXISTED (here say does not a valid argument make)

    Regarding #2 – Nothing is more impossible than the Jewish messiah being born of a virgin and being HaShem himself on earth. HaShem would never EVER put himself in human form. That is lowering himself, and making an image of himself, which is strictly forbidden time and time again. JC was killed the way false prophets are supposed to be killed, however, so at least he did that right.
    You really think that the majority of the world believing in HaShem is impossible? The major religion in the US believes in a demigod being stabbed on a stick in the exact way his predecessor Mithra was. I don’t see why it would be a stretch for people to eventually come to the truth. I was raised Christian, went to Christian schools. I heard the truth in Judaism and realized the lies I had been told. Maybe more will come to this realization.

    Regarding #3 – Yes, it really matters what the words mean. Just like it matters if you mean “pierced” or “like a lion”. You guys can make up your own language and speak in tongues, or say you were divinely inspired to change the meaning of the words, it doesn’t make you right.

    Regarding #4 – The Jews look for and hope for THE Messiah every day. We have not seen any evidence of him having come. We look forward to it, and will embrace it really happening. JC didn’t do it. JC did NOTHING close to it (well, he did nothing at all if we are honest. Paul made him up.)

    1. Lewis,

      I have been exceptionally busy but I have not forgotten your message. Have you had the chance to examine the evidence provided by the atheist Bart Ehrman about the existence of Jesus? The historical, anthropological and sociological evidence for Jesus is overwhelming and I am deliberately staying away from Christian sources so that you will not accuse me of only using in-house sources. Additionally, the Talmud provides evidence for the existence of Jesus and we both know that to be the case. Your own responses contradict your rationale and we both know that as well.

      You are incorrect about the calendar. The current Jewish calendar was not fixed until Hillel II in the 4th century AFTER Jesus ( Regardless of that argument, the 69 weeks would have been fulfilled BEFORE the destruction of the Temple and that is one of my arguments.

      Regarding #2 — Why? Just why? I would like for you to explain that to me, especially we have numerous examples in the Tanakh of the Angel of the Lord (and please do not use the Metatron argument as that is weak beyond measure) including when Jacob stated that he saw the face of the LORD.

      Regarding #3 — I don’t understand your argument. Could you elaborate?

      Regarding #4 — You have seen nothing because you are looking at the arguments of rabbis and not at the words of the Tanakh. I would encourage you to return to the Scriptures and see what God’s Word has to say about His Messiah and not what Maimonides had to say.

      Regarding Satan — Have you read Isaiah 14?

      Regarding Hell — Sheol and Death are examples but what does Psalm 139 state?

      1. I have looked at evidence from many sources and all of it is beyond circumstantial. You can prove that there was an offshoot of Judaism that believed in Jesus, but there is nothing to indicate his existence other than that people followed the teachings. The gospels speak of all graves being overturned, of census’ that required you to go back to where you were from? All sorts of things that make no sense. Not to mention the complete contradictions between the books. No, there is no real evidence of the guy. There is evidence of the religion, but not of the person. Even in the Talmud you must be either using every instance of them talking about a Joshua, or about dealing with the followers, not the person himself.

        Both arguments may have merit, but no matter how much you jump up and down and point at the imaginary guy, I can’t believe it points at him 😉

        Regarding #2 – Why would I turn away from Christianity? Why would I turn away from a religion that says “do nothing enjoyable because it is sinful, only worship Jesus, the afterlife is all that matters, kill all who do not convert, etc etc etc” Because it is lie upon lie. Christianity only works if you never read. Or if you quote out of context. If you print out all four gospels and arrange them so that the timeframes of each account lines up…. NOTHING matches. Then do a bit more research and realize that most of the lines supposedly spoken are stolen from Krishna. The “miracles” were done by Buddha and Krishna. Elijah performed more miracles than this guy, and they were unique miracles, yet he never claimed to be a messiah. Then you study a bit more and realize the whole virgin birth thing was made up to trick pagans into believing. You delve into Paul’s writings and realize that he completely COUNTERS the teachings of Jesus. Saying the law was fulfilled? How do you fulfill law? The messiah is supposed to make the law extend over ALL people, yet yours abolished it? Ridiculous.

        I want to be a part of a religion that embraces life, wants me to enjoy my time on this earth, wants me to be the change in the world, not just pray that it gets better. Also it is ridiculous because you claim that you believe in one entity and yet you believe in 4. You pray to one of them THROUGH the other (because praying to G-d just isn’t good enough?), the other floats around in all of us, and the fourth does all the bad things…. There is SOOOOOO much paganism. It is a paganist attempt at monotheism that is VERY LOOSELY based on Judaism. It would make more sense to just start a new religion from scratch instead of basing it on one that does nothing but prove it wrong. The G-d of Israel loves us. He doesn’t make an evil angel to torture us. He doesn’t create a fiery pit to toss the unbelievers into. That is not the work of a loving G-d.

        Regarding #3 – Saying that the translations don’t matter. That how a word is translated doesn’t make a difference… It does… Singer and Skobac endless counterpoint so many things that have been translated wrong. One of the biggest points Missionaries use is that David’s hands were pierced, when the translation has nothing to do with it. I was simply showing how you are twisting words to fit your guy when they don’t.

        Regarding #4 – I grew up in Christiandom. I went to school, I went to church. I have watched all the videos that make children fear how the devil is out to get you, how sinful the world is, how bad music, video games, the internet, tv, etc are for you…. Because the best way to keep a population ignorant of the truth is to hide them away in a bubble. Sadly for them, since I had no other real choices, I read the bible…. And found out how full of lies the gospels and Paul are. If Jesus was the Messiah, then all the Jews would have known it (because Elijah would have shown up, the world would have been united, there would have been a King of Israel, not a country under the iron fist of Rome). And they would have embraced it. The Jews have embraced many other would be messiahs. They didn’t make it, we moved on. The second coming that Jesus spoke of was supposed to happen in their lifetimes…. Unless one of those apostles is still walking around, I am pretty sure he missed his deadline.

        Satan – Yes, I have. He was an angel that G-d asked what the oppositional point would be. So are you saying that G-d and your version of the devil hang out together and decide how best to proceed? Wouldn’t that counterpoint your hell theory? Satan is whatever angel G-d speaks with at any given point and time to give an opposing point of view. In fact (and you know this) satan can reference ANY opposition. Your military or political opponent is your satan. He is your opposition, Not a big evil angel out to get you and constantly make you sin. To think that G-d created a being JUST to make us fail? You really don’t think G-d loves you very much if you believe that.

        Hell – Psalm 139? References nothing about hell. It talks about him hating the enemies of G-d…. How is this at all talking about hell? Aside from which it is a song, so trying to turn any Psalm into anything more than a song is a bit…. Untrustworthy as a source for literal translation. Unless you really think he is flying up to the dawn and swimming down to the depths?

        My main point here is that the focus of your mission is wrong. Just like all Christianity has not embraced Mormonism as being the truth (you should, really… it is the next step of Jesus, right), it is just as absurd to expect Jews to embrace your faith. I know….. I was in your faith. Then I read into this one. The ONLY Jews you will get are the ones who do not know their faith. And that is sad that they were never taught it. I live less than 30 miles from Bob Jones University now. My kids are going to go to school with a LOT of Christians. And they will know from the start that they are never to offend a Christian for their faith. Just as they are to never tell any other kid that there isn’t a Santa Claus. Just as they aren’t supposed to tell the Christians that Easter is really a Pagan holiday celebrating fertility. I do respect your religion for it’s teachings. But your missionary policies are evil. Shoving your beliefs down someone else’s throat is wrong.

      2. Lewis — I have provided anecdotal and actual evidence and your only response is to say you don’t agree with it. Your arguments about Krishna and Buddha are not true either but I am not going to debate you on those fine matters because even atheists know that such approaches are weak. However, you revealed yourself and your issues in your final response to me. Somewhere and somehow along the way, Christians hurt you and I am deeply sorry for that fact. I have been hurt by so-called Christians; however, I did not turn away from the truth of Messiah Jesus but you did. There honestly is no point in continuing this dialogue until you are willing to discuss it on a rational and not emotive level. I am sorry for your pain and I wish it had not happened. You are in my prayers.

      3. ? I was not harmed by anyone. I was harmed simply by reading and having enough intelligence to discount it as garbage due to the massive levels of contradiction. I spent from 16 till 33 pretty much knowing there was a G-d, but knowing that the whole Jesus story was made up. I sought out every religion from wicca to Hinduism, and finally rested on Judaism because out of all the religions I truly feel that it is right. Now when I say sought out, I do not mean that leaving Christianity left me with this big gaping hole. In fact it filled me with more happiness knowing that there was no truth behind the hellfire and brimstone religion.

        Your points have been argued, counter argued, and you refuse to listen to any of them. People with far better understanding than either of us have counterpointed you, yet you still choose to think your twisting of the Torah/Tanach/Talmud is correct. I choose to think that your points have already been invalidated time and time again. I can simply pull up a youtube video and find out how you are wrong in about 30 seconds. The Krishna/Buddha points are valid. They can be proven. You can discredit them all you want because you choose to say “the devil put it there” just like the crazy southern baptists that think the devil planted dinosaur bones and science is evil. (not all southern baptists, but a LOT of them will discredit science and blame the devil)

        I am not trying to convert you. You can believe whatever you wish. I just do not at all understand how you can literally stalk people, go to temples of other religions, masquerade as one of them, and covertly try to convince them that they are wrong. I truly wish that any other religion had the stomach to be that deceptive and do it back to you. Remember, Islam came after Christianity because they thought Paul’s interpretation of Jesus’ message was WAY off (and honestly, if you read anything, they are right to an extent only because Jesus said to never alter the Law in any way, and Paul said throw it all out). How would you feel if muslims kept slipping in to your church and stealing away members? What if Mormons started coming to your church and at the dinners or activities explained to them how they ALMOST have it right, but really they will get their own planet when it is all said and done. What if they started baptizing your dead to make sure they go to their version of heaven? Do you see how wrong that is?

        I am emotional about the subject because, as I stated before, you are literally doing the Jews of the past a great disservice. They knew of Christianity. They knew about Jesus. They DIED to NOT convert to Christianity. They loved G-d so much that they refused to convert to paganism even though it cost them their lives. Now you want to share your message? Your message is everywhere. It’s not like Christianity isnt easy to find out there. Do you really have to try to force it on people? I see your post about visiting Jewish grave-sites and it literally made me sick to think of that. You visited the grave of someone who suffered because they believed so strongly in G-d that they would NOT convert to Christianity… And then somehow feel motivated to antagonize more Jews into converting to Christianity… How do you get the opposite message? Can you not see the horrors committed in the name of your faith’s need to convert everyone? Just let people come to you if they need to come to you. Stop being a pushy used car salesman selling a Kia to someone who already has an Audi. If they want the Kia, they will come buy it. I find your tactics cruel. I find all missionary groups disgusting. Religion is easy to seek out. Pushy religious people are what make others scoff at religion. I’ve heard the comment before that the problem with Christianity is all the Christians. The moral code isn’t bad, the message isn’t bad, but the constant need to just take over everything is horrible.

        You are correct in saying we do not have much left to talk about because neither of us are going to change the other’s religion or views. I also do not want your prayers for many various reasons…. Mostly because you should be praying for the millions of hungry and sick, not for the conversion of one person. If your prayers have so much power, stop directing them at tiny things and start pointing them at Africa or anywhere else that has serious problems. I simply wanted to show that your answer of ‘oh Christianity hurt you and you won’t listen’ is incorrect. I read the NT twice before deciding to never set foot in a church again. Simply because the text does not back up the claims that any church makes, and Christianity is based on a text that completely counters itself at every turn. Harry Potter had less plot holes. So in reading, I found it was garbage and discarded it as such.

      4. Laura says:

        Bart Ehrman asked how do you prove the resurrection? You didn’t answer that.

      5. The question of the resurrection has been answered by Rabbi Pinchas Lapide. Rabbi Lapide who was not a believer in Jesus believed in the resurrection of Jesus. I would encourage you to read Michael Licona and Gary Habermas’ work on The Case for the Resurrection of Jesus. I could give you other books and sources … IF YOU ARE REALLY INTERESTED.

      6. And please know again, my prayers and the love of Jesus is with you. Chag Sameach and may you come to see that Jesus is the fulfillment of the Torah covenant of Shavuot as He promised He would be in Matthew 5:17-20.

    2. lewis, you need to stop acting the the zealous convert. i always see when a goy converts to Judaism they become ultra zealous, even more than the natural born jew. i was born jewish but was not raised to be very observant. and it gets me upset when i see a ger who acts arrogant and looks down on other jews who are not ultra observant or does not observe the same minhag/nusach. its like an adopted child who wants to impress his adopted family members by doing more than they to prove they are worthy. let me tell you this you dont impress this natural jew. i will still see you has a convert and not real jew. besides you did not need to convert, you can just follow the Noahide laws and you would have been fine and still had a part in the haba olam. and btw jc is not his name…its Yeshua who is a jew not a Greco-roman blonde haired blue eyed man.

      1. You presume something that I have neither implied nor stated…. I am reform, not orthodox. I am not ultra-zealous. I merely am stating that Yeshua (JC to most Christians) is a made up story based on pagan religions that makes a bad attempt at meeting the criteria of Judaism. I am also stating that your perversion of Judaism is created ONLY to trick Jews into believing in a false messiah. Now that wouldn’t be so bad if you didnt worship your messiah as a G-d… That is the part that is wrong.

        I am not trying to impress you. And your pureblood Jewishness does not make you a Jew if you have rejected HaShem to worship two sticks with a man nailed to it. You are among those who have spit on the graves of your ancestors. How would your ancestors feel knowing that they suffered to keep the covenant with G-d and reject the made up god-son-man just to have their descendant turn on that tradition and make their sacrifices in vain? That’s just sad.

        How is a convert not a real Jew? I guess David isn’t a real Jew either since his grandmother was a convert. You call ME zealous and make an ignorant statement like that. That is a very arrogant and completely untrue statement and you know it.

      2. Laura says:

        It’s not jew, it’s Jew. I don’t call him JC either. I call him jeebers

      3. Your complaint is not with me, Laura, but with Uriel’s bad grammar. If you noticed, I always capitalized Jew and Jewish. Your disrespect of Jesus’ name expresses your own childishness and insecurity about the truth of Messiah Jesus. I don’t suppose you show such disrespect to Buddha or Mohammad do you? No. Because their religion is not truth. Jesus is The Way, The Truth, and The Life. This terrifies you and it saddens me. I pray for you guys daily. And despite your attempts to castigate, categorize, and harass me, I want you to know that Jesus has given me such a love for your soul.

      4. Laura says:

        This Uriel has some messy anger issues

      5. Larissa says:

        Rude. A convert is just as Jewish as a natural born Jew. However, it sounds like you forfeited your Jewishness for paganism.


    1. Laura says:

      Please note. You asked about Bart Earhman and I replied to that. You referred me to Lapide. You never answered his question or mine. We have the truth that is why this dead Jew is not a messiah. Oh, I never said you spelled Jew as jew. I was responding to the idol worshipper with a fake sounding name. Oh, and look up the word cockiness. Thanks for blocking me. Daddy’s little girl can’t take it. 😮

      1. I blocked you on the Facebook page because you continued to violate the guidelines about spelling Jesus’ name correctly. And I am sorry that you are envious of my relationship with my dad. He was/is a great man. And I gave you a reference … Licona’s/Habermas’ book. Would you like additional references? Additionally, there are other references besides Licona/Habermas but you are not really interested … are you? If not, please do us both a favor and let this go. When you are really interested in discussing Jesus calmly and rationally, I will be here. Until then, you are in my prayers and heart. Otherwise, I will not respond because it wastes both of our time.

      2. Laura says:

        You still didn’t answer my question. That means you can’t. You use references that don’t say what you say. That means you are a liar. Did daddy teach you to lie? No just jebers lies as the rest of them that use as a reference. Sad 😦

      3. Laura — This will be my last response to you until your anger subsides and you are willing to be calm and rational. I know what you are trying to do by bringing my dad into your comments and you will not be successful … and I will tell you why in a moment. I have given you references and you don’t even consider them or look at them before denying their credibility before calling me a liar. You are obviously not ready for a calm rational discussion about Messiah Jesus. You have anger issues. You have fear. And that breaks my heart. I am sorry that you are bound by such anger and fear.

        Regarding my dad — I suppose that is “the group’s” latest tactic — use my love for my family against me. And I do love my family … very, very much. My father once said in a sermon that he was able to love his family as much as he did because of the love that was given to him by Messiah Jesus and because he loved Jesus more. I cannot wait to see daddy in heaven (and we in the South are allowed to call our daddy’s daddy until the day we die) because I miss him every day. However, he left me a lesson that I am taking with me over the last few weeks. At his last pastorate, a few church members wounded him deeply and profoundly. I was angry because they had him and my mama cry more than once. As I was talking to them on the phone one night, he told me he needed to get off the phone because they had to go to the hospital in the morning because the spouse of one of them was having heart surgery and he needed to sit with them. My human reaction was to let them sit alone. Daddy reminded me that he was a pastor and that was his job and they needed comfort and love. Daddy told me a lesson that night. Love even when you don’t want to love because Jesus loved us even when we didn’t want His love. So, the man you mock and the Jesus you mock have taught me to see through your pain to see the heart that is broken and in need of Messiah Jesus. When you are ready to meet Jesus, I will be here because my dad and my Jesus taught me to do so.

      4. Ben Setser says:

        Laura, she will not answer your question or questions from anyone else that is not in her ridiculous religiosity.. She wants you to fit her little ‘mold’ or she refuses to play with you. She has no capacity for dialog, only to sell her idolatry to those who want nothing to do with it. If you don’t use her ideas, she will sidetrack the conversation. Just like a shyster. She does not have the ability to understand that the heretic on a stick is an abomination to Jews everywhere. She is incapable of seeing anything but her own idolatry. Just as I will not mention the false gods of the Greeks, the Aztecs, the Persians or the Romans; neither will I mention the name of the corn-dog messiah jujus.

  6. abelia w says:

    why do you think you have the word of G-d right?? do you read hebrew? do you write hebrew? have you even studied the original Tanakh?

    1. I have a MA in Theology with a emphasis in Biblical Studies. I am two seminars and a dissertation short of a Ph.D. in theology. I am conversant in Biblical Hebrew and so I can read Biblical Hebrew and be sufficient in writing it to know when someone is snowing me or taking a verse out of context. Yes, I have studied the original Tanakh. I refer to the Masoretic sources for the Tanakh and I am not afraid to see what the Talmudic sources have to say as a reference point but not as authoritative. Does that answer your questions?

      1. Ben Setser says:

        Amy, why don’t you use your “advanced education” to proselytize Moslams rather than Jews. There are a lot more of them to chose from, and I’m sure they will welcome you with open arms, and drawn swords.

  7. Ben Setser says:

    Let me give a short answer as to why Jews have rejected the pagan xtanity for 1800 years and have suffered near extermination as a result. Numbers 23:19 “G-d is not a man, that He should lie, Nor a son of man, that He should repent; Has He said, and will He not do it? Or has He spoken, and will He not make it good?” The idea of a man, born of a woman being any other thing but a man is idolatry! He didn’t swoop down to ‘save’ a lost world, that is just made up crap, along with the xtion idea of hell, to frighten simple minded people into belief. It’s a scam, a lie, made up by Constantine the Great in his own image! The idea that G-d sacrificed himself to himself for the benefit of the populace at large is preposterous grandstanding! The xtion world seems to reject the idea that their pagan religion is polytheism when their own text, the non-testament states emphatically that it is. Should one buy into the nonsense that 3 can be one, the father, son, ghost fallacy; Paul adds another deity in 2 corinthians 4:4 “For the god of this world has blinded the unbelievers’ minds [that they should not discern the truth], preventing them from seeing the illuminating light of the Gospel of the glory of Crust, Who is the Image and Likeness of G-d.” This one entire passage illustrates the paganism of the non-testament with the addition of additional gods and the introduction of likenesses and images. How many gods do you want anyway? When you make up your own religion, you can have all you want. Please come out of this idolatry. When Jews have rejected this paganism, as we have for the past 1800 years, xtions have retaliated with progroms, and annihilation, and you wonder why we want nothing to do with you and your idolatry? It seems to me that the Mormons were invented so that xtions can see what it is like to have their text hijacked, re-written, added to, then sold back to them as the ‘Real Thing’. G-d (HaShem) is, was, and always will be the only G-d, the creator of heaven and earth, creator of all good and evil and the Tanakh is the only word of G-d. Nothing changes, there are no additions or revisions, it is all there. Keep in mind Malachi 3:6 “For I am the L-RD, I change not; therefore ye sons of Jacob are not consumed.” We will not comply! We will oppose all your efforts to steal Jews. Shalom

    1. Ben —

      You have yet to reply to my 9:32 a.m. response and yet you post a 9:44 response. I will respond because your understanding of Scripture and biblical context is weak and needs to be correct; however, I will not respond again until you completely and accurately deal with my above questions.

      My friends at Jews for Jesus have accurately responded to the issue that this verse in Numbers 23:19 does relate to the question of God’s character and not his corporeal vs. incorporeal nature. And while the question of corporeal vs. incorporeality is a worthy question, I will not discuss it with you UNTIL YOU ADEQUATELY ANSWER MY ABOVE QUESTIONS.

      However, I want to take Numbers 23:19 a little further than Jews for Jesus did. There are two Hebrew words for man in this verse that need to be considered. The first is transliterated at “ish” which is generic for man (אִישׁ). The second is transliterated as “adam” which should be understood as representative for humanity (אָדָם). God/Jesus is not the Son of Adam and Paul points this out well in Romans 5:12-14 but is instead Jesus was the Second Adam who came to redeem the world from their sins. Even your sins, Ben. He is waiting for you.

  8. Ben — I believe your “swords” comments could be construed as a personal threat to my life. Should I take it as one and report it? Do you wish me dead?

    1. Ben Setser says:

      No, I don’t wish any harm on you. I wish you would leave us alone! We have been too soft of a target for nutz like you for too long. Just leave Jews alone. We want nothing to do with your idolatry.

      1. Ben — I cannot. I will not because Jesus the Jewish Messiah loved me enough to die for my sins as well. And I love you enough to not let you head into eternity with the truth of Messiah Jesus being shared with you. You can hate me but I will never stop loving you enough to share the love of Messiah Jesus with you.

      2. Ben Setser says:

        I taught History in a local community college until I retired 7 years ago, and once in a while I would get a student like you who already knew everything about anything. Those students that are like that are not teachable, and the good thing about college rather than high school is I didn’t have to keep them. So after they disrupted the class with their point of view twice, I would let them know that they were no longer in my class and they could leave. Then they could wait till they became teachable, find another instructor or another school. It would always fix the problem. Now with you, I will defer to Proverbs 26:4 “When arguing with fools, don’t answer their foolish arguments, or you will become as foolish as they are.” You are stuck neck deep in your pagan idolatry of human sacrifice and multiple gods. I shall pray for you.

    2. Larissa says:

      Don’t be so dramatic, you’re no martyr

      1. Larissa,

        I know what I want to write; however, I am not going to do it. All I am going to put into words is that your pain is obvious and I hope that you will consider Messiah Jesus as he longs to be your פֶּלֶא יֹועֵץ and it is true that He is “the one whose counseling is wonderful.” Yes, my time in the Scriptures today is Isaiah 9:6 and I am enjoying my time with God. I hope you do as well.

  9. Ben Setser says:

    The Chofetz Chaim ZT”L

    “When a person realizes he has faults, he is in a much better situation than one who does not realize it since he can now work on improving himself.”

    1. Ben — What a nice statement from The Chofetz Chaim and then you write the statement below …

      Laura, she will not answer your question or questions from anyone else that is not in her ridiculous religiosity.. She wants you to fit her little ‘mold’ or she refuses to play with you. She has no capacity for dialog, only to sell her idolatry to those who want nothing to do with it. If you don’t use her ideas, she will sidetrack the conversation. Just like a shyster. She does not have the ability to understand that the heretic on a stick is an abomination to Jews everywhere. She is incapable of seeing anything but her own idolatry. Just as I will not mention the false gods of the Greeks, the Aztecs, the Persians or the Romans; neither will I mention the name of the corn-dog messiah jujus.

      And, yet, you will not answer my simple questions or respond to my evaluation of Numbers 23:19. Until you do so, I will not answer any more of your comments; however, I still love your soul. I still pray for your soul and I know that Messiah Jesus does as well. You obviously need the truth of Messiah Jesus in your heart as well as his shalom.

      1. Ben Setser says:

        Just playing your game. You made the rules.

      2. What do you mean? You are making absolutely no sense and until you respond to my questions, there is no need to post your comments because you are being nonsensical.

  10. “In fact, I once told anti-missionary leader Rabbi Bentzion Kravitz personally, and in front of a room full of Jewish people, that if Jesus is not the Messiah that I am heading to hell when I die. He was shocked by my response as was the Jewish people who heard my response but it was necessary to illustrate to the rabbi my absolute belief and affirmation of Jesus’ Messiahship (BTW, I had at least two or three Jewish people come up to me afterwards to indicate that I had given them “spiritual” food for thought).”

    What a load of made up nonsense. The people in the room probably thought as I do that you are a crazed loon hell bent on bringing about the spiritual and physical genocide of the Jewish people.

    1. Menashe Dovid — I was there. You were not. Rabbi Kravitz was … ask him. Incidentally, I have noticed the increasing response on this blog but no counter-response to the arguments while at the same time no comments on the Noahide information. Why? Did I post anything that was not accurate?

      1. You have not said anything worthwhile or accurate.

      2. Ben Setser says:

        Ah yes, she is already deleting post here because she doesn’t want to honestly respond.

    2. Laura says:

      I said the same exact thing many, many months ago on her facebook page. She deleted it and blocked me. She doesn’t get it.

  11. Menashe Dovid — Show me where I was wrong. I quoted exactly from Maimonides. I linked to Noahide cites. Prove it.

  12. Ben — I told you that if you did not respond to my questions and my comments on Numbers 23:19 that I was not going to waste my time with your drivel and personal attacks. You haven’t. I am not. Respond or stop commenting. Your choice. But I am still praying for you and your soul. I still care deeply for your eternity and love you in Messiah Jesus. Please know that to be the truth.

  13. So what? Quote away to your hearts content. You have the burden of proof for your idolatrous beliefs.

    1. No, I don’t. I have asked you to prove that I was wrong about what I wrote about the Noahide belief system and you can’t. I have proved my point. You can’t disprove it. You have also not disproved my arguments in this blog post and I have. Go ahead and admit what you know in your heart and in the secret corner of your soul … Jesus is the Messiah.

  14. The “tour de force” of the Messianic Jew or Christian missionary is often the use of Isaiah chapter 53 in the conversion of Jews to ‘Yeshua’ or “Jesus” respectively. The use of Isaiah chapter 53 sometimes works on the unsuspecting secularized Jew in the culturally ‘Christian’ western world. The use of Isaiah chapter 53 only sometimes works because of the Messianic Jew’s or Christian missionary’s basis for proof lies squarely in the evidence[1] and validity of the New Testament (NT) or Brit Chadashah, which even those most assimilated Jews with a good amount of self esteem knows to avoid like the plague. Christians’ lack of successes in converting Jews are often because of taking the NT statements at face value without asking in what particular sense Isaiah’s prophecies of the servant of the L-rd apply to Jesus which is a next phase in the missionary approach. The next phase in the missionary approach teaches that the death of Jesus is the universal vicarious substitution for the death penalty which all sinners deserve. The earliest ‘biblical’ expression of a vicarious substitution for universal sin ONLY occurs within New Testament[2] and not within the Hebrew Bible. It is however, the Christian’s prior doctrinal commitments projected onto and applied to the Hebrew Bible in general and Isaiah 53 in particular which Christians assume is G-d’s message to every sinner and to the Jews especially.

    “Yet it was our sickness he was bearing, our sufferings he carried. But we accounted him plagued, smitten by God and afflicted. But he was pierced on account of our rebelling, crushed on account of our iniquities, the chastisement that brought us peace was upon him, and by his bruises we are healed. All of us like a flock had gone astray, we had turned each to his own way, and the L-rd interposed on him the iniquity of all of us.” [53:4-6]

    If the first person plural language in the above is taken universally, then the servant of the L-rd necessarily must be Jesus, because nobody else but Jesus bears universal sin. But within the biblical context of the prophecy, the “we” is not universal. In context, the “we” is in the mouth of the non-Jewish kings who have despised and taken advantage of Israel in exile. The kings whose report of Israel’s success would not have been believed had the kings (see chapter 52) not seen Israel’s ultimate success with their very own eyes.

    “Kings shall shut their mouths at him. For what was not told them, they shall see. And what they did not hear, they shall observe. ‘Who would have believed our report? Upon whom has the arm of the L-rd been revealed?’ He arose before him like a sucker, like a root out of dry ground. He had no visage and no majesty. ‘We saw him, and there was no appearance that we should find him pleasing. He was despised and shunned by men, a man of sufferings and familiar with sickness; like one who hides his face from us. He was despised, and we held him of no account.’” [52:15b-53:3]

    In view of context, if the “we” of the prophecy is not referring to all sinners ever born on planet earth, then the suffering servant is not Jesus or necessarily any would be messiah. Israeli kids learn Isaiah 53 in school, along with all the rest of Isaiah. Israelis know chapter 53 goes with the rest of the book! It may well be only people unfamiliar with the Book of Isaiah, ‘Christianized’ people who have read only chapter 53, who jump to the conclusion that this is all about Jesus because secular Jews who participate in Western civilization are for all intents and purposes culturally Christian. Some Jews who are won over to the Christian understanding of Isaiah 53 are therefore, being won over to majority Christian culture, rather than to fulfillment of Bible prophecy or simply because of a lack of self esteem and/ or lack of Jewish identity.

    Taking a look at context, Isaiah 53 obviously prophesies that non-Jews will someday repent of their mistreatment of Israel, recognize that in God’s mysterious plan Israel’s sufferings have been to the benefit of others, and acknowledge that Israel has been the true servant of God all along. The problem however, is with those ‘Jesus glasses’ on, seeing Israel as the true servant of God certainly is not obvious to many non-Jews!

    Certain of the prophetic specifications, which Christians often view as pointing exclusively to Jesus, are in fact borrowed from biblical descriptions of Israel’s experience. For example, in Isaiah 53:7 the servant of the L-rd is said to be like a flock led to the slaughter. In Psalms 44:22 Israel is said to be like a flock led to the slaughter.

    “For on your account we are killed all the day; we are considered as a flock for the slaughter.”

    To give another example, Isaiah 53:11 says “my righteous servant shall make many righteous.” We have just such an expression in the Book of Daniel regarding Daniel’s people Israel. Daniel 12:1b-3.

    “At that time your people will escape, everyone found written in the book. Many among those sleeping in the dust of the ground will awake, some to the life of eternity and others to shame and to the contempt of eternity. And the prudent will shine like the brilliance of the firmament, and those who make many righteous like the stars, for eternity and ever.”

    To give another example, Isaiah 53:11 says “my righteous servant shall make many righteous and carry their iniquities.” This language comes from the operation of Israel’s sanctuary. It was the duty of Israel’s priests to carry[3] the iniquity of others. Leviticus 10:16-17.

    “Concerning the goat of the sin-offering Moshe diligently inquired. There it was ― ablaze. He was angry with Elazar and with Itamar the surviving sons of Aaron. He said, ‘Why did you not eat the sin-offering in a sacred place, for it is most holy? And it was given you in order to carry the iniquity of the congregation, to make expiation on them before the L-rd.’”

    Numbers 18:1 is also explicit in this connection.

    “The L-rd said to Aaron, ‘You, your sons, and your father’s house with you shall carry the iniquity of the sanctuary; you and your sons with you shall carry the iniquity of your priesthood.’”

    Carrying the iniquity of others is also a prophetic gesture. Ezekiel 4:4-6.

    “And you shall lie on your left side and place the iniquity of the house of Israel on it, the number of which you lie on it you will carry their iniquity. I have given you the years of their iniquity, according to the number of days, three hundred and ninety days. And you shall carry the iniquity of the house of Israel. And you shall finish these, then you shall lie on your right side, and you shall carry the iniquity of the house of Judah, forty days, a day for a year, one day per year I have imposed on you.”

    During the exile, the children of Israel complain that their punishment is too severe, because they’re carrying the iniquity of previous generations.

    “Our fathers sinned and they are no more, and we are carrying their iniquities.” [Lamentations 5:7]

    In order to end the exile, the L-rd calls his righteous servant to resume Israel’s original mission task of carrying the iniquity of others. This is what priests do, and Israel is a kingdom of priests (Exodus 19:6).

    In addition to the prophetic specifications borrowed from biblical descriptions of Israel, certain of the prophetic specifications do not seem applicable to Jesus at all. For example, Isaiah 53 verse 3 describes the servant of the L-rd as,

    “A man of sufferings and familiar with sickness; like one who hides his face from us. He was despised, and we held him of no account. Yet it was our sickness he was bearing.”

    Verse 10 adds,

    “Yet the L-rd was pleased to crush him with sickness.”

    The New Testament accounts relate numerous instances of Jesus healing people, but never is it told in the NT that he got sick in their place. If his work load and hiking itinerary is anything to go by, Jesus seems to have been a robustly healthy individual. If Jesus was characterized by sickness, the gospel writers do not note the fulfillment of prophecy.

    Another particular which does not easily fit Jesus is in Isaiah 53:3,

    “like one who hides his face from us.”

    Hiding the face from others is the behavior proscribed by the Torah for a leper (Leviticus 13:45). We have no record of Jesus hiding his face. In fact, Christian teaching emphasizes the opposite: that Jesus is the disclosure of God; that in seeing Jesus’, God’s face is seen[4].

    Another particular which does not easily fit if the servant of the L-rd is Jesus comes in verse 8. It is evidently one of the astounded non-Jewish kings who confesses,

    “On account of my people’s rebellion he plagued them.”

    Within the framework of standard Jewish interpretation the statement makes good sense. If “my people” refers to the said king’s misbehaving subjects and “them” refers to the children of Israel, the prophecy is then saying that the L-rd plagued his servant Israel on account of these other people’s rebellion. But if, as Christians commonly claim, “my people” refers to Israel, who then can the antecedent of “them” be? Can Israel be both the referent of “my people” and the antecedent of “them?” Of course, it is a biblical truism that when God’s people Israel misbehave he punishes them, but why would the prophecy bring that up in connection with vicarious substitution? It is not vicarious substitution when people get what they deserve. Unless Jesus is the antecedent of “them,” it is difficult to construe this statement as referring to Jesus.

    Another particular which does not easily fit, if the servant of the L-rd is Jesus, comes in verse 10.

    “Yet the L-rd was pleased to crush him with sickness, that should he make his soul a guilt-offering, he would see offspring, he would prolong his days, and the pleasure of the L-rd would prosper in his hand.”

    Unless you believe Dan Brown’s Da Vinci Code, Jesus did not produce offspring and he did not enjoy a full lifespan. Some Christians have argued that since Jesus is God and God is infinite, that Jesus enjoys prolonged days. Infinity however, is not what the Bible means by prolonged days. The Bible never attributes prolonged days to God. Furthermore, in the prophecy the servant’s prolonged days are predicated on the L-rd crushing him with sickness and making his soul a guilt-offering. God’s infinity is not predicated on what he does to his servant.

    The above difficulties give at least a plausibility to the Jewish position that the servant of the L-rd in Isaiah 53 is Israel rather than Jesus.

    1. See Acts 8:35, Luke 22:37 and Matthew 8:17.

    2. Romans 5:18; John 1:29 and 1 John 2:2.

    3. The goat [of the Day of Atonement] that was sent [into the wilderness] (Ley. xvi. 20, seq.) served as an atonement for all serious transgressions more than any other sin-offering of the congregation. As it thus seemed to carry off all sins, it was not accepted as an ordinary sacrifice to be slaughtered, burnt, or even brought near the Sanctuary; it was removed as far as possible, and sent forth into a waste, uncultivated, uninhabited land. There is no doubt that sins cannot be carried like a burden, and taken off the shoulder of one being to be laid on that of another being. But these ceremonies are of a symbolic character, and serve to impress men with a certain idea, and to induce them to repent; as if to say, we have freed ourselves of our previous deeds, have cast them behind our backs, and removed them from us as far as possible. CHAPTER XLVI, THE GUIDE FOR THE PERPLEXED, BY MOSES MAIMONIDES.

    4. 2 Corinthians 4:6; John 14:9; 1:18

  15. Ben Setser says:

    She is a coward, that’s why she deletes most everything, ‘bless her little heart’.

    1. Bentzion Jecker — I do not hide behind a pseudonym.

      1. Laura says:

        The more truth we give you the more afraid and delusional you become. Of course you can prove your pseudonym comment. You are a very lonely woman. 😦

      2. Laura — Thanks for the affirmation. I approved your comment to affirm what Bentzion is afraid to face that he is hiding behind Chabadnik lies and pseudonyms. However, future comments will not be approved by either one of you because until you are ready for an honest discussion that does not engage in falsehoods, half-truths and pseudonyms, this page is done.

        And I am complete in my relationship with Messiah Jesus. I pray the same for you.

  16. Daniel 9

    I discuss Daniel 9 in a number of articles on my website: I will refer to them as they explain at more length what I am going to say here. I hope that you (or anyone reading what I write) will look there first before making a comment on what I write. I will summarize what appears there in longer form.

    First issue: you refer to Daniel 9 as being “one of the most complicated and convoluted” passages in the Tenach. I would not say it is convoluted. We seem to agree as to the end point of the passage as being 70 CE. I think the cause of the complexity is the problem of dating; when the 490 year period starts. You (and I mean the Christian side) seem to have this all wrong for a number of reasons. I would refer you to my article on the dating: which explains the problems.

    In short the problem is that Daniel does not have the same dating as the one accepted by secular scholars based on the ancient author, Ptolemy. In part 2 of that paper I point out that in Daniel 11 the angel tells Daniel that following the present king there would be only three more until Alexander, while Ptolemy has 8 more kings and a much longer period. This leads to a shorter duration of the Persian period by over 150 years. I show that this is consistent with what is found in the books of Esther, Ezra and Nechemia. The rejection of this shorter chronology is not a rejection of the Jewish understanding of the time period but of the Biblical time period (which is what the shorter Jewish dating is based on.)

    As I point out there, with the shorter Biblical chronology, the Jewish understanding that the 490 year period starts at the first destruction and ends at the second destruction works perfectly. There are two anointed ones; the first after 7 weeks (Cyrus) and the second after 69 weeks (Agrippa) and the end of the period is with the destruction of the temple.

    Let’s ignore that for the moment and look at the errors in interpretation in this article:

    First it says: “Interpretation depends on whether one views the prophecy to be literal and when the order to rebuild Jerusalem was actually given.”

    Actually this is false on both accounts. Jewish interpreters all see it as literal and they all agree that various decrees were given. The problem is that the Christian interpretation doesn’t fit the words. There is no discussion of a decree. The text says: “issuance of the word”. If you look at verse 23 we see the same idea of a word from G-d and it does not refer to a decree but to a prophetic word/utterance. Christisn all look to tie it to a decree that was not the intention of the verse.

    Next it says: “The classic work by anti-missionary Issac Troki argues for a Cyrus fulfillment of the passage”.

    Actually of you look there he argues as I have that there are TWO anointed ones and he says the first is Cyrus, who is called ‘anointed’ or Messiah’ in Isaiah 45:1. The article actually continues with this error asking how the 483 years can be reconciled with a decree from Cyrus.

    Then it says: “The Messianic/Christian option is to consider this fulfillment of Daniel 9 to lie with the order of King Xerxes’ order to rebuild the walls of the city in c.445 BC which would bring fulfillment and the cutting off of the anointed one around AD 29-30.”

    There are of course a number of problems here. First she has ignored the first 7 weeks and what was to happen then. She claims to have read Troki, but he is clear about the first period, and the text is also. In fact if you look, at verse 26 it states explicitly after the 62 weeks, clearly showing that there is a previous 7 week period which she has ignored.

    Next the timing doesn’t work. If we say the period starts at 445 BCE then the 670- weeks (490 years) ends in the year 46 CE! This is long before the destruction of the Temple and the city. That is pretty meaningless. And the 69th week ends 7 years earlier, 39 CE, which is after Pilate was no longer in charge of Judea. It just can’t eb made to work.
    Then it says: “it is the relative avoidance of the passage by anti-missionaries (except for Troki) and the neglect of the passage in the synagogue that would open the passage up for an apologetic consideration among both the Jewish people as well as the non-Jewish audience.”
    I have a number of books that deal with apologetics and they all deal with Daniel 9. Besides Troki that includes: Gerald Sigal, Berger’s translation of ancient text Nizzahon Vetus, the Hebrew text of Rabbi Moshe of Tordesilla (Ozer Emunah) and of course Tovia Singer. In fact I don’t know of a single one that doesn’t have it.
    As to the use in the synagogue, I assume this is a reference to the Haftorah readings, but it is rare for there to any reading from the Writings in the Haftorah. (I don’t know of any offhand.) This shows a great ignorance of Jewish customs.
    Then it says: “Controversy is contagious for discussion, especially when one considers that regardless of when the order of Daniel 9 began to be fulfilled the Messiah (anointed one) should have appeared before AD 70.”
    This assertion that it has to be is Jesus or asserting facts that she cannot prove is very typical with missionaries. In the work by Williams (that tries to answer Troki) he says “Yet while it is quite certain that the Rabbi’s interpretation of the verses is wrong, I cannot find any interpretation that commends itself to me.” The difficulty and in fact impossibility of the Christian interpretation is clear even for many of those that try and support it.

    1. Moshe,

      There are SEVERAL inherent problems with this post and the article that I read from your website. I only have a few minutes to respond to them but I will try to cover as many as I possibly can in the time I have allotted. However, just because I have not covered something does not mean that I have conceded your point.

      First, your history is way off. This is because you are trying to link rabbinical interpretation with Biblical truth. The Seder Olam is a fascinating record, and I have a copy on my shelf, but there is a fundamental error in the Seder Olam and it begins with the Exodus. According to the Seder Olam, you have the Exodus occurring much too late in history and it contradicts the Solomon dating in 2 Kings 6. If it is a question of Biblical history or rabbinical understanding, I go with the Biblical truth every time. Second, your dating contradicts MASSIVE amounts of not only Biblical truth but also historical evidence which dates Nebuchadnezzar’s capturing of Jerusalem to 586 BC. You yourself on your website grant that historical evidence contradicts the rabbinical dating, by the way. Third, you INTENTIONALLY twist the Christian understanding of dating related to the 445 dating for the Daniel 9 prophecy and expect no one to discount your answer; however, I am going to do so. First, one has to balance the accepted and factual dating of 446/444 date (which fits with the Esther accounts also) and overlap/interpose the Hebrew calendar dating system to understand the Daniel prophecy. By doing so, you have Jesus arriving in Jerusalem for His final Passover, and the fulfillment of so many of the prophecies of Zechariah 12, in approximately 30-32 AD. Additionally, and this is something that anti-missionaries fail to answer is why where there so many anticipating the Messiah’s arrival during this time if they had no understanding of Daniel 9 (John 10 for example)? Fourth, you yourself concede that Daniel 9 had to be fulfilled before 70 AD but you fail to explain how Agrippa meets the criteria of Daniel 9. Jesus does! Fifth, I have read Williams’ and he could have done a better job of responding to Troki but then Sigal and Singer (who I have also read) could have better more transparent of not being specious in dealing with the Christian arguments.

      Moshe — Finally, you claim that Michael Brown has debated you but according to your link you have only responded to him. Have you given him a chance to offer a counter-response? If not you need to change your statement because it is false.

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