Is Anyone Innocent?

Apparently, Tzedakah Ministries set off a moderate amount of controversy recently over the use of the preposition … “of” on the recent blog about the failures of FDR during the Holocaust period. I used the phrase “death camps of Poland” instead of “death camps in Poland” as some wished I had done.  There was no intentional desire to offend over this usage of the word “of” but offend was the outcome. My apologies as a Christian for the UNINTENDED offense but I will not change my words because I do not believe in censorship of others or of myself. This non-censorship is obvious as I have allowed some obviously belligerent comments to be posted that were unnecessary and some might say “beating a dead horse.” Please note that it is not me saying the “dead horse” comment, but what others have responded to me when I told them about the controversy, especially since the theme of the post was about the FAILURES OF THE UNITED STATES AND FDR and not about the nation of Poland.

However, this led me to consider the question, especially in reading the comments in which I perceived that some who were offended were wishing to absolve Poland from any responsibility for the deaths of Jewish people who were in their country. Would any country of Europe and the United States be able to proclaim and receive a verdict of “Innocent” if they were brought before a court and jury. So … let’s consider the evidence.

Is there any country in Europe that adequately responded to the needs of the Jewish people during the period known as the Shoah? The United States did not as shown in the previous blog post. Citizens of the Ukraine, Lithuania, Hungary, and the USSR often participated with the Germans in the killing of the Jewish people. Western European countries, such as Holland, France, Belgium, often stood by and allowed their neighbors and friends to be taken away and did nothing but wait until decorum allowed them to go and scavenge the remains left behind.

Honestly, one could make the argument that in Europe that there are only two countries that could be completely absolved from guilt as it relates to the Holocaust. Denmark who has already been designated as the ONLY Righteous Gentile Nation by Yad Vashem and perhaps Bulgaria and the Bulgarian Orthodox Church (even though there is some  controversy over this sought after designation). Switzerland’s neutrality could not be considered as worthy of being absolved because neutrality in the face of evil is basically apathetic evil. So truly there are very few countries who can stand up and say, “We did enough to save the Jewish people when they most needed our help.”

Each country, including Poland, has their share of “Righteous Gentiles.” And, indeed, Poland has the greatest number of “Righteous Gentiles” of all European nations but it could be argued that it is tragic that there were only 6,394 Righteous as it is a small number when the Jewish population in pre-WW2 Poland numbered 3 million (but I am not praising Netherlands for having 5,269 Righteous per 156,000 Dutch Jews either as the numbers for all countries should have been much higher). Irena Sendler of Poland is an example of a wonderful Righteous Gentile and the fact that Al Gore won the Nobel Peace Prize over her is a joke of epic proportions. Corrie ten Boom and Oskar Schindler sacrificed family and wealth for their good deeds. The city of LeChambon in France and those in the UK who took in children from the Kindertransport should be praised for their actions but their nations AS A WHOLE have much to regret for what they did not do.

I remember a pivotal scene in Schindler’s List that has always stuck with me that personifies the truth that no one was innocent for the crimes of the Holocaust. We as a world community should have all done more to stop this atrocity and those seeking absolution for their nation miss the point … “We could have and should have done more.” And that we did not, we will one day have to explain why to God.


19 Comments Add yours

  1. Sue says:

    But don’t the Inspired Scriptures warn us that “all the kingdoms of the world” lie in the power of “the wicked one”?

    In the light of that, what should we expect from them? And isn’t that why Jesus taught us to be “no part” of the world – to take no part in its divisive politics and cruel wars. And he also taught us to obey the worldly authorities in everything -except when they ask us to break God’s law. God’s law must always come first. God will deal with all the earthly powers when the time comes. Think of the promise in Daniel 2:44 for example.

    This was very hard for Christians in Germany as the Nazis came to power. As followers of Christ, they could not even “Heil” Hitler as if he were their saviour, let alone join his Nazi party, his army, or his Gestapo. They were severely persecuted and many died. And of course Nazi racial teaching completely contradicts Christian teaching, which is that we are all the children of Adam, all siblings.

    You ask how “the world” responded to the Holocaust. A good question. And I would also like to ask how did it respond to Stalin’s killing of millions of Ukrainians before WW2 even began? He made no secret of it. Did it any way affect his being “a goodie” in the WW2 narrative?

    And has “the world” learn anything? Don’t wars and genocides continue to this day.

    Isn’t this why we say The Lord’s Prayer and ask for God’s Kingdom to come? We desperately need a new rulership over the earth – one that is based on loving-kindness and true jusitce.

  2. Proud Pole says:

    Sir, the issue is NOT the difference between “in’ and “of” but between “Poland” and “German Occupied Poland”. The camps were simply NOT in “Poland” but in “German Occupied Poland”. The two terms are NOT interchangeable and refer to significantly different geopolitical entities.
    You are equally mistaken in that we seek “censorship” and I think that Poles who lived under German Nazism and Soviet Communism are more familiar than you with what censorship actually is. What we seek is CORRECTION to an improper AND HURTFUL reference to camps set up by German conquerors in German occupied Polish territory, camps in which Poles were often the FIRST prisoners, and in which they were often the second largest group.
    You again sir, fail to mention the 3 million Polish Slavic dead as if this is meaningless and insignificant, and, honestly, I feel IT IS meaningless and insignificant to YOU.
    Your comparisons between Poland on the one hand and Bulgaria and Denmark are quite amateurish. Poland fought Germany and was defeated by both Germany and the Soviet Union. Poles refused to cooperate and were governed by Germans. Poles AND Jews were destined for annihilation WITH POLES BEING THE FIRST TARGETS OF GERMAN MASS MURDER. Bulgaria was an ALLY OF GERMANY, which gave their government leverage to try to resist anti Jewish policies, although unsuccessfully, in the end. Denmark did not fight Germany, and, considered Germanic by Hitler, were NOT DESTINED FOR ANNIHILATION. Occupied Denmark was run by a collaborative DANISH government, and Denmark sent 4,000 VOLUNTEERS to fight alongside Germany.
    MOST IMPORTANTLY, ONLY IN GERMAN OCCUPIED POLISH TERRITORY was there a death penalty, besides for any minor infraction imaginable, to be carried out by any rank and file soldier on the spot without due process, for those helping Jews in any way, and to those who only KNEW of anyone helping Jews in any way and did not report the help, which translated into family and neighbors of those helping. In all the other countries, such as Denmark, the penalty was a fine or imprisonment. TO OMIT THIS MAJOR DIFFERENCE and then compare numbers, as if comparing apples with apples, is either disingenuous or ignorant!
    Another thing, Jews in Denmark were assimilated, meaning they spoke Danish fluently, and did not dress differently, and knew Danish culture well and could blend in. Most Polish Jews, approximately 85%, THANKS TO POLISH TOLERANCE which did not force Polonisation onto the Jews, spoke no Polish, and were unfamiliar with Polish culture. How do you expect Poles to help someone they don’t know, while being targets themselves, that they can’t communicate with? While Poles were being targeted by the Germans and Soviets for murder, Jews were being isolated in walled ghettoes that Poles, with few exceptions could not enter.
    Sir, your comparisons and pseudo intellectual rationalizations again reveal either your lack of knowledge and/or ill will towards Poles. alas, ignorance leads to and usually is a part of bias, which you clearly exhibit against Poles. Again, go to confession, ask for forgiveness, stop being obstinately closed minded and change the text, NOT from “in Poland” to “of Poland” or vice versa, as both are incorrect, but from “Poland” to “German occupied Poland”. While at it, you might want to overcome your bias even further and acknowledge the bravery and suffering of Poland, which you have yet to do.

  3. Iwona says:

    The 6000+ Polish Righteous are a mere fraction of the (incalculable) total, precisely because unlike occupied countries like Denmark (which the Germans considered their ethnic peer) or German allies like Bulgaria, an automatic death sentence was imposed in occupied Poland for anyone rendering even the smallest token of help to a Jew. The rescuers, their families, the witnesses and the Jews they helped were all summarily executed! Moreover, the Holocaust did not occur in a vacuum, since Poles themselves were targeted for annihilation by Nazi Germany!

  4. I am not going to engage in a debate with those who again are choosing to miss the point that the entire world was guilty of apathy in regards to the Holocaust. Blaming the victim because they primarily spoke Yiddish and not Polish or excusing inaction because of fear of death (despite the commands of Scripture such as in John 15:13) is beside the point. I again am simply pointing out that no one, if Oskar Schindler could not say it, can say “I did enough.”
    I have resisted the urge to paste this link because of fear of what might ensue; however, I think perhaps this will illustrate my point — The reason why the Polish Righteous Gentile Irena Sendler is such a heroine is because she understood John 15:13 and did the right thing because of it. And, yes, Al Gore should be ashamed of himself for accepting the Nobel Prize when it should have gone to her.

    1. Sue says:

      Hello again, and thanks for the interesting post. I wish we could sit down over a cup of tea and talk. Mostly about Biblical things though, not this political stuff, which is distresssing, and the very opposite of up-building. And re Nobel prizes, well they are surely political things, and so Iassume they go where the politics dictate.

      First of all though, should we be judging others? Surely we are all under judgement, and all of us in need of “undeserved kindness” from our Creator, the God of Abraham? And that comes only through the ransom sacrifice of Jesus Christ. Its not something we can earn through our own merit. I have never been in the terrible circumstances of those who had to live under Hitler and Stalin. And in Poland’s case, under Hitler and Stalin combined, when as the Nazi-Soviet Pact countries, they invaded, occupied and divided Poland between them, and started World War 2.

      Having never been in those awful circumstances myself, how could I judge others?

      However, I do so much admire the Christian congregation, in Germany and the occupied countries, who refused to take part in what Hitler and Stalin were doing. Didn’t Hitler say that he would “exterminate the brood of them” from Germany (and it wasn’t for lack of trying on his part that he didn’t succeed). And Christians in the Soviet bloc suffered terribly under Stalin – many were deported in cattle cars to the horrors of the Siberian gulags. Where, according to him, those who survived “polluted” the whole of Siberia with their teaching!

      Hurray for the power of God’s spirit-inspired word.

      And how wonderfully the true God strengthened his people to stand firm and not take part in the hatred, as, yet again, brother killed brother, sister killed sister – by the million.

      I am aware of the Professor Jan Gross trilogy, which is much lauded and applauded, being very on-message. Poland is being moved into the Axis Camp and is being made responsible for the Axis crimes. I’m not quite sure why, or where this is going, but no doubt time will tell.

      However, as I hope I have said before, Poland fought on the Allied Side, and therefore has to take its share of blame for Allied crimes, including the terrible and unChristian revenge taken on the conquered civilian population after the war. Poland is one of the “kingdoms of the world”, the same as any other. And us Poles/Polonians are the fatally-flawed children of Adam, the same as everyone else.

      1. Sue — I have not thanked you for modifying and Christian tone throughout this entire misunderstanding. Thank you for your compassion and your thoughtful tone throughout everything. I wish everyone would have read as thoroughly and been as thoughtful as you. God bless. Shalom.

    2. Proud Pole says:

      Sir, it is YOU who are missing the point, and choosing NOT to debate us only because you are WRONG. It is YOU who ARE disgracefully BLAMING the POLISH victims. Even worse you can’t even acknowledge that Poles even WERE victims.
      By the way, no one blamed anyone for not speaking Polish. I brought up a very simple fact that made it extremely difficult for Poles to help most of the Jews. No one blamed Jews so far.
      Sir, I really have to question the legitimacy of your ministry. You clearly lack humility, openness, compassion or understanding for others …. besides Jews. Are you really Christian? You lack Christian qualities. We would like to send some members of a Polish parish or organization to visit you to see how real you are. What is your address and location? If this is a ministry, then you should be open to others, to minister to others. What wider church is your ministry associated with?
      Unfortunately, based on your comments thus far I believe that you are nothing but a wolf in sheep’s clothing! You actually sound more, being familiar with the modus operandi of the Communist movement, which infiltrated the Russian Orthodox and Catholic churches, like a Communist, or post Communist pretending to be Christian. That would certainly explain your anti Polish bias, being that Poles utterly rejected Communism, and that the Poles and the Polish church did so much to undermine Communism.
      Let us summarize your disgraceful stance:
      We ask for a simple and easy change of words from “Poland’ to “German occupied Poland” and you find the most ridiculous, insensitive reasons not to do so.
      You omit that the Polish government in exile informed FDR and Jewish Americans, and upon no action by either, the world, of the ongoing genocide of the Polish and European Jews.
      You claimed falsely in one of your responses to us that the Polish government in exile did not alarm the world of the ongoing Holocaust. You failed to acknowledge that this claim of yours was wrong.
      You omit the suffering of the Polish people at the hands of the German Nazis and the Soviet Communists with the number of Polish Slavs murdered by the Germans being 3 million. You continue to not acknowledge this.
      You brought up Kielce after the war and used this to try to portray this as evidence of a Polish crime, when in fact it was a Soviet/Communist crime.
      You failed to acknowledge the vicitimization of ethnic Poles, and Poland in general, after the war at the hands of the Soviets and Communists, the same perpetrators as that of Kielce.
      You demand of Poles to have risked their lives and the lives of their families for the lives of Jews, which shows that you value, or pretend to value, the lives of Jews over Poles. This demand of yours has absolutely no ethical standing.
      You claim without self doubt or humility that YOU would definitely have risked your life to save Jews from the Germans, although you have nothing to show that you have such predisposition to risk your life for others, being that there is so much evil in this world, you certainly had plenty of opportunities to risk your life to save others, but seem to have not done so.

  5. I know the Polish people suffered during the Nazi occupation and during the Soviet occupation; however, the point of the post was not was about those issues but about the suffering of the Jewish people. I am under no obligation to focus on the Polish suffering when I was writing about Jewish suffering. If you would like to do so on your own blog, please do so because it is an under-reported part of world history.
    You have placed words in my mouth that are not true but I am choosing not to respond to and I will no longer respond to your comments. You also have no knowledge of what I have or have not done in my life and therefore, you have no right to judge me. Please cease and desist from commenting on this blog unless you have proof that Kielce (because I provided evidence that it was a citizen action) was a Soviet action or you wish to comment on Jan Gross’ arguments. Otherwise, I will no longer respond.
    Again, I would encourage you to create your own blog about the history of the Polish people. It would indeed be edifying to a great many people. Irena Sendler was a great woman who deserved the Nobel Prize over the pretender Al Gore. Pope John Paul II was a noble man who did many wonderful things to bring the love of God to people across the world. The story of Maximillian Kolbe, who while not perfect, is a testimony of self-sacrifice that needs to be told for the world to hear. A response to Jan Gross’ claims is something that could be written about on your blog. The 600-years of Jewish history in Poland and the efforts of Poland today to rectify and reclaim that history is something that I would like to read about from your perspective.
    My faith in Messiah Jesus is assured because of my personal relationship with Him. I have prayed for each of you that are angry with me and I did apologize for my unintended offense in this post (see above). Your refusal to accept this apology speaks more about you than it does about me.

  6. Sue says:

    This is a blog you might find interesting – as it deals with these issues, including the Professor Jan Gross books.

    And, once again if you are interested you will find many of us commenting on the relevant Amazon pages. It often seems like facing a tsunami with only a plastic teaspoon, but, truly, its not that we are not trying to tell our story.

    However, what I would really like to talk to you about – over a virtual cup of tea – is these words at Gal. 3:27-29: “All of you who were baptized into Christ have put on Christ. There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor freeman, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one person in union with Christ Jesus. Moreover, if you belong to Christ, you are really Abraham’s seed, heirs with reference to a promise.”

    But only if you want to, of course.

    And I’m sorry you have been upset by all this – and am touched that you have apologised. I have never thought that you were among those deliberately trying to vilify us.

  7. Proud Pole says:

    Sir, I can be relatively certain that you are not an Irena Sendler, Pope John Paul II or Maksimlian Kolbe. I have reason to doubt your claim that you would have sacrificed your life for those you do not know, under the circumstances endured by the Poles. You, of course, made this claim as part of your accusation that Poles were guilty of German crimes only because not enough help was provided. While it is nice to see you begrudgingly admitting Polish suffering, you do not admit the scope of it.
    You have still not admitted that you made a false claim in regards to the Polish Government in exile allegedly not informing the world of the ongoing Holocaust, which it did in fact do. I did not put those false words in your comments – you did. You forgot to mention amongst many Polish heroes – Jan Karski, who as an emissary of the Polish underground, with risk to his own life and those of the Polish underground, with few losing their lives in order for Karski to fulfill his mission, was the one who voluntarily allowed himself to be smuggled into the Ghetto and and a transition German camp to witness firsthand the atrocities bieng committed against the Jews. Mr. Karski was the one who informed FDR of the Holocaust. He also informed Felix Frankfurter and other prominent Jewish Americans who did nothing.
    You brought up Kielce which had nothing to do with the Holocaust to distract from our justified claim that your words were inaccurate and offensive. The evidence that the crime was a Soviet/Communist crime is widely available for those who are open minded, which you are not.
    While you have no obligation to talk about Polish suffering, I would presume that a Christian-like approach would be to be understanding of the suffering and sensitivities of others, and you did not exhibit such as you offensively referred to Death camps in “Poland” as opposed to “German occupied Poland” which insinuates that the camps were Polish, when in fact they were German.
    Your apology would mean something if you changed the words from “in Poland” to “in German occupied Poland”. Actions mean more than words, although words are significant and do cause pain, anger and action. I invite your apology but expect more, and what we expect is not MUCH MORE than the apology. Your refusal to make the change just shows the apology was really not sincere.
    Are you trying to claim that there is no difference between “in Poland” and “in German occupied Poland”?
    1. Admit you falsely claimed that the Polish government in exile did not inform the world of the ongoing Holocaust.
    2. Admit that “Poland” is not the same as “German occupied Poland” and make the change accordingly
    How tough could that be for a Christian who claims to be ready to sacrifice his life for strangers?
    PS. I also remind you that Irena Sendler did not act alone, she acted as a member of the Polish underground, with many other unsung members also risking their lives to hide the children from the Germans.

    1. Sue says:

      Hello Proud Pole, I don’t think that the author of this blog intended to upset anyone. There is so much political spin attached to the history of WW2 nowadays that its no wonder people get confused.

      Can I recommend Psalm 37 to you? I find it more helpful than I can say. It tells us that our Creator, the God of Abraham, knows how “the world” is going to make us feel, it tells us how to deal with it, without ourselves becoming shaped by the attitudes of the world, and, above all, it tells us what God is going to do about it.

      Isn’t this rescue what we are praying for when we ask for God’s kingdom to come?

      1. Proud Pole says:

        Can you ask the author of this blog to be truthful to his (allegedly) Christian faith and show some humility, admit he was wrong, ask for forgiveness, and make appropriate amends, such as changing the wording from camps in “Poland” to camps in “German occupied Poland”. He needs to retract his false statement that the Polish government did not alarm the world of the genocide of Jews by the Germans, when in fact they did? I’m not asking for much here. His obstinacy is speaking volumes in regards to his sincerity and faith.

      2. Sue says:

        Hello Proud Pole, I haven’t managed to find a name for the blogwriter yet – I am not really of the internet generation.

        We have been able to have our say and hopefully make a difference. I personally would leave it there, although I would love to have a talk about some of the Biblical issues raised.

        Would you be interested in discussing them? I must tell you that I am one of Jehovah’s Witnesses – many people would not want to talk to me because of that.

  8. Proud Pole says:

    for some strange reason the author of this blog keeps engaging in censorship by repeatedly removing the following post. it really reminds me of communist, atheist, non-Christian censorship. The below was addressed to Mr. Price, whose name is all over this site, but appears to not have known about it, so it is partially addressed to the mysterious author of the blog. I don’t see anything wrong with it, unless there is a secret agenda for this site.

    Sir, you are right that there is plenty of pain associated with this topic for Polish People. Poles were the first to stand up to the evil of German Nazism and Soviet Communism and suffered for this more than all other countries only to be occupied for 50 years by the Soviet Union, with the Soviets and their Communist (read atheist) imposed “Polish” government after the war spreading anti Polish and anti Christian propaganda that was accepted and spread as gospel by the gullible western press and governments seeking to appease the Soviets. As the world celebrated the end of WW II. Polish heroes were being hunted down and killed by the cynical Soviets who did everything to justify their murderous activities towards the Poles who were resisting them, abandoned behind the Iron curtain, left to themselves to defend their faith in God against Godless Communists who were attempting to destroy churches, but failed to do so in the face of opposition.
    The most prominent aspects of this propaganda was that Poles did not fight the Germans, collaborated with them, did not help Jews and were co responsible for their murder. In line with this is the omission of all efforts made by Poles to defy and resist the Germans, and to help Jews, as well as the omission of Polish suffering and the specific penalty applied ONLY in Polish occupied territory of death to Poles and their families for helping Jews in the slightest way.
    By allowing this post to remain unchanged YOU are complicit in causing pain to those who defied the Germans, defied the Soviets afterwards, those who suffered under both the German Nazis and the Soviet Communists, and of course the families of those murdered which was 3 million Polish Slavs and 3 million Polish Jews by the Germans, and up to 1.5 million by the Soviets. As such, your lack of compassion and courage to right this wrong will be noted as such, and your credibility as a pastor WILL be challenged aggressively.
    If one wishes to mention that FDR was informed of the ongoing genocide of the Jews by the German Nazis, then it MUST be mentioned that it was the Polish underground which discovered, documented and smuggled out the proof to the West, AND it was the Polish Government in exile that informed not only FDR, but Hollywood, and Jewish American leaders, most notably Felix Frankfurter, who then DID ABSOLUTELY NOTHING. Google Witold Pilecki and Jan Karski, or Irena Sendler (maiden name Krzyzanowska) Polish Catholics, who, because of their belief in God risked their lives to attempt to stop the Holocaust. One was executed in a mock trial after the war by the Soviets, another was arrested after the war by the Soviets and almost lost her life, while the third was forced to live his life in exile, or face arrest also by the Soviets should he have went to Soviet occupied Poland.
    The person who posted this article, if not you, commit the SIN of omission, and then in one of his/her posts commit the sin of false accusation as he or she stated that the Polish government did not do anything to help the Jews. This person also omit the murder of 3 million Polish Slavs.
    Sir, I don’t know if you experienced the hell that Poles experienced where six million citizens were killed. In the US counseling for trauma is provided for people in mass shootings where 10 to 20 people were killed. Imagine now the emotions for 6 million killed, which is evident here. SO YES, there is hurt and pain and outrage expressing itself in our posts. DO THE RIGHT THING AND CHANGE THE TEXT SO THAT THE REFERENCE TO THE CAMPS IS COMPLETELY ACCURATE – GERMAN NAZI CAMPS IN GERMAN OCCUPIED POLAND. INCLUDE THE FACT THAT THE POLISH GOVERNMENT ALARMED FDR AND THE WORLD OF THE HOLOCAUST BEING COMMITTED BY THE GERMAN NAZIS.
    By the way, do not believe the propaganda about what happened after WW II – in Soviet occupied Poland. Kielce was perpetrated by Soviet and Communist functionaries IN UNIFORM, and then finished by Communist thugs in plainclothes. This is not even controversial. These were the same people who were hunting down members of the Polish underground and killing them. The idea that Poles are accused of perpetrating this crime which DID occur is offensive!

    1. Sue says:

      Hello Proud Pole, my father – who I loved very much – was a Polish para – fighting on the Allied side, against Hitler, like so many others. So, believe you me, I find this very hurtful too. And I also note the continuing double standardsof “the world”. The crimes of the Stalin regime usually have no political weight at all – except when they were committed in Poland and then, suddenly, the rules change.

      But I am trying to act in harmony with all the principles in Psalm 37, while also speaking up. But I can’t blame this blogger if he/she is confused. The world is full of lies. In fact, don’t the Inspired Scriptures warn us that “the whole world” is lying in the power of the one who is called “the father of the lie”?

      His intention is to mislead everyone. And I always think that as a Polonian, I am getting a useful upclose and personal warning about this.

      But a rescue is on the way. A wonderful rescue. That is what we are trying to tell you as we go door to door. But we need to stand firm in the meantime and not let the world mould us into its shape.

  9. Proud Pole — Three things. First, you are engaged in falsehood because I have never removed any of your posts. I have allowed all of your posts to stand even though they have been inflammatory and full of falsehoods against my character. Second, I asked you to cease and desist unless you would engage in a proper and academic response to the Kielce Pogrom issue instead of just saying “everyone knows.” Again, here is a link you would find interesting — Are you calling the US Holocaust Museum a liar? Here are two other links — and Third, I asked you to cease and desist unless you would care to respond to the issues raised by Jan Gross — I also encouraged you to create your own blog and stop stalking mine. The point of these two posts was to point out that no one was innocent of the massacre of the Jewish people during World War II and that the entire world could have and should have done more. Your obsession over a preposition and your bullying insistence on a word change says much more about your character than it does mine. Please cease and desist and move on. For while there were individuals, including many Polish Righteous Gentiles, who exhibited the character of Messiah Jesus, there is no country (except for Denmark) that did enough to save their neighbors from the massacre that was awaiting the Chosen People of God whose only crime in the eyes of the Nazis was that they were born Jewish. Please cease and desist and move on. I am politely asking you.

  10. Proud Pole says:

    I posted a comment which disappeared two times. At this time, based on the other posts remaining, and the post remaining after I posted it the third time, I take back my accusation of censorship.
    First things first. Let us deal with your provocation of us. We’re not talking about “just” a preposition. You referred to “Poland” which insinuated that the camps were in a “free” Poland when you meant “German occupied Poland”. Big difference. Most others who are reminded of the difference agree and make the change. Why not you? Think about it. Censorship? Puleez!!!
    Two – you then claimed falsely that the Polish government in exile did not help Jews, and that it didn’t alarm the world of the ongoing hlocaust, when in fact it did. No acknowledgement of your mistake. Why not? It was a false statement which could clearly engender undeserved hate towards Poles. Your omission of Jan Karski as an emissary of the Polish government in exile being the one informing FDR of the ongoing Holocaust is part and parcel of the falsity you insinuated by stating the camps were in “Poland” and not in “German occupied Poland”
    Three – You omtted the suffering of the Poles and I objected, because you make it sound that Poles were living in luxury while Jews were being killed next door. Slavic Poles and Polish Jews suffered together and your omission of this in the context of Poles allegedly not helping Jews is a glaring omission, extremely relevant to YOUR initial topic. How many Jews helped Poles being persecuted by the Germans and Soviets? I imagine the question is outrageous to you. Well, in light of the suffering of the Polish people, your question of how many Poles helped Jews is equally ridiculous and disrespectful.
    When a person committing a violation tells another to cease and desist objecting to the violation, is the person objecting obligated to cease and desist? To exaggerate the qestion, if Hitler told the world to cease and desist resisting and fighting him because of his crimes, is the world obligated to cease and desist?
    There is a reason for freedom of speech and why censorship is frowned upon. Freedom of speech leads to truth. I am challenging your writing so that the truth suppressed by Soviet and Communist censorship for fifty years, comes out. Why should I cease and desist? I sincerely sense undeserved dislike of Poles in your comments and, in the belief that you have been misinformed, see it as my duty to challenge this undeserved dislike, and to try to see Poles in a light that is more positive, because the truth warrants this, not because I am trying to whitewash history.
    As for Kielce, I will get you some link or links and put them in another post.
    For now, I request respectfully that you:
    – change the term “camps in Poland” in your initial article to read “German occupied Poland”.
    – acknowledge that yes, the Polish government in exile, and the Polish underground, did help Jews, and did alarm the world of the German perpetrated Holocaust on the Jewish people in Europe.
    After that we can move on to Kielce which I claim was a Soviet/Communist crime.

  11. I do not engage in blackmail and I do not engage in manipulation in order to change my words. I have posted several links about the Kielce Pogrom and you have not know which states a great deal. Here is a link about Jan Karski ( which speaks a great deal about his individual courage. I would encourage you to READ IT ALL. I am also waiting for you to respond to the Jan Gross investigation and discoveries which you refuse to do … which reveals more about your character as well. If you choose not to do so, I consider this conversation closed. For all the countries of Europe were occupied and all the countries of Europe faced a great deal of persecution for helping their Jewish population. And ALL of the countries of Europe should have done more. That is the point of the last two posts and that is the point you refuse to understand. I have nothing more to say. The conversation is closed.

  12. Proud Pole says:

    Excuse me, but nowhere have I used blackmail. That is a silly accusation on your part. You seem to be very obstinate in refusing to admit your outrageous error whereby you stated that the Polish government in exile did not alarm the world of the ongoing Holocaust of the Jews, in which ethnic Poles were also being killed en masse. As a person who clearly has a dislike for Poles, probably due to ignorance of Polish history, I feel obligated to challenge your presentation of History which uses omission, falsity, distortion, etc. to engender negative feelings towards Poles.
    Again – admit that you made a false accusation against the Polish government, not because of some imaginary blackmail, but because it is the right, Christian thing to do.
    Again – change the wording from “camp in Poland” to “German camp in occupied Poland” or “camp in German occupied Poland”. Your wording was hurtful and your obstinacy and lame excuses not to make the correction are even more hurtful. Do this, not because of some illusory blackmail, but because it is the right, Christian thing to do.
    I note that you are trying to limit the heroism of Jan Karski to Karski himself, when in fact he acted at the direction of and with the assistance of the Polish Government and underground, which, by the way, included Jews. Your omission, again, is part and parcel of your misrepresentation of Polish WW II history, and by extension, the slander of Poles and Poland.
    You again are trying to diminish, and fail to acknowledge, the full scope of the suffering of the Polish people at the hands of the Germans by erroneously equating the experience of Poland with that of other nations, such as allies of Germany, or those treated mildly by the Germans.
    Kielce, and the occupation of Poland by the Soviets is another completely different chapter in Polish History that would take a lot of time to explain to you, which I am very eager to do. First things first.
    You were the one who was initially offensive and misleading through you poor choice of words, and then were even more offensive by making false accusations against the Polish Government, which you have yet to correct.
    By the way, the NY Times is NOT an authority on Polish WW II history. Another topic that would take a lot of time to explain.

Leave a Reply

Fill in your details below or click an icon to log in: Logo

You are commenting using your account. Log Out /  Change )

Google+ photo

You are commenting using your Google+ account. Log Out /  Change )

Twitter picture

You are commenting using your Twitter account. Log Out /  Change )

Facebook photo

You are commenting using your Facebook account. Log Out /  Change )


Connecting to %s